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Can One Lose Salvation? An Exchange
Using the King James Version, Part 1

By Matt1618

This is a response to a King James only advocate, who is a Landmark Baptist, who believes in faith alone, and that one can not lose oneís salvation. His email to me in brown says why he believes in faith alone and how one can not lose his salvation. My response follows.

I am bewildered at your warped theology in claiming that you have even began to rightly divide the Word of Truth. I was once a fallen from gracer, but it was a grand and glorious day in my life when I realized that the Lord Jesus Christ done it all for me. I realize that I had to accept his sacrifice but after that no matter what you claim, you would have to teach that you are earning your way to heaven somehow. What a criminal doctrine and a slap in the face to our precious Lord to insist that you have something to do with your salvation. Like endurance, works, overcoming, and so on. My soul friend, why did God send his only begotten Son to die if we could make it to heaven on our own? Try asking the people who built the tower of Babel about that one! You try to climb up some other way you mark it down you will be considered a thief and a robber! Christ paid it all what are you going to add to that. I believe in holy living. But I try to live holy to honor him and because I want to be pleasing to my Heavenly Father not to be saved. If you are not careful this self righteous attitude will eat you alive, ask Cain. "God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our LORD JESUS CHRIST, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world." I guess when we get to Heaven one day after while, people will be standing around everywhere patting themselves on the back saying, "I endured to the end (which by the way in it's context has to do with the saving of the flesh in the tribulation period), I held out, I done it, I have enough good works, I hope? God help us to see how absurd and how wicked that we really are and can be in our fleshly depravity! The thought of foolishness is sin. Therefore him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not is sin. Whatsoever is not of faith is sin. For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. All our righteousness is as filthy rags. If thou, LORD, shouldest mark iniquities, O Lord, who shall stand. For there is not a just man upon earth, that doeth good, and sinneth not. If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. I would rather lean to the side of teaching that a righteous man or woman does not want to regularly commit sin because of the new nature that God has imputed unto them more than I had this sorry doctrine of "Well I am saved now and it doesn't matter what I do," but lest I play the role of a fool I nor yourselves can never say that you are without sin! Proof. What causes death? Sin of course and I know you know that. Do you think that you will die? If you ever get rid of sin then you shouldn't die! You will out live old Methuselah here on earth! Thank God for the sacrificial death of the Lamb of God that bore mine and your sins and suffered the penalty of sin upon himself, thus freeing everyone from condemnation that calls upon his name for salvation!! Thank God it's eternal life not 10, 20, 5 or maybe 2 years of life, but rather Jesus, the one who cannot lie, said ETERNAL LIFE for all who will come unto him. I would make sure dear friend that I was drawn of the Spirit and repented of my sins if I were you.

No. It is not a warped theology, it is a plain reading of Scripture. Every book in the New Testament talks of that possibility of losing salvation except for maybe Philemon. You want to ignore verses that is your perogative.

First off, Why did Jesus come? What was his purpose? He explains it in Titus 2:11-14:

11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, 12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world; 13 Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ; 14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.

Notice, he gives the reason for our salvation to live righteously. That is for our salvation. His purpose is not to just pretend that we are innocent even though we sin all the time and can't help ourselves, but according to Paul redeem us and purify for himself people who are zealous for good deeds, and this is in the context of salvation. He did his part, now it is the part of Christians to live it out. Now, you teach a doctrine of demons if you think that sins can not separate one from God. BTW, just because it is a gift given from the Father, it does not mean it is 'earning' salvation.

You say it is a slap in Jesusí face if we must obey to keep the commandments. Well, Jesus himself said the following:

Mt. 19:16-17 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life? 17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Rev. 22:14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.

One can enter in the gates, and one has a right, only if one keeps the commandments. Now, I take Jesus at his word. Do you?

Paul says in Rom. 8:17, after declaring one who is in Christ a son, he says:

17 And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

Notice it is that we are heirs of God (inherit salvation) provided we suffer with him. I will take Paul's words over your words.

Christian works are not filthy rags. Taking a verse out of context in Isaiah, does not apply to Christians. Paul writes in Romans that in justification one is made righteous (see Rom. 5:17-19) by God. Are you saying that God makes filthy rags? In fact John notes, 1 Jn. 1:7-9

7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin. 8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

God did not make filthy rags, but through his grace, he truly cleanses us from righteousness on an ongoing bases. He also makes it mandatory that we keep the commandments for eternal life, 1 Jn. 2:3-5

3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

You say you have to do nothing, the Bible says that if you don't keep the commandments, you are a liar. I will take Scripture over your words

Heb. 10:26-29

26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins, 27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries. 28 He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: 29 Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Do I believe what that says or what you say?

2 Pet. 2:20-21

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. 21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Do I believe what that says or what you say?

I believe it is a warped theology that can ignore the many Scriptures that are given. Look at what Paul says 1 Cor. 6:9-18:

9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. 11 And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. 12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. 14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. 15 Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. 16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.18 Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.

You see that you are deceived, if you think that that there are no sins that can separate one from Christ. It is not I who says it, but Paul himself. He says that those sins in 1 Cor. 6:9-10, will separate one from Christ. Apparently there were some around, who thought that if they did these sins, they would not be cut off from Christ. Now, he says that in Christ, one is washed, sanctified and justified. Thus justification = sanctification. Justification can not be separated from sanctification. Then to drive home the point again, he gives an example of acting so immorally to cut one off from God. Committing sins of immorality against the body, such as fornication, is a sin against God (1 Cor. 6:15-18). He warns Christians against immorality. He's not talking about pagans who don't know Christ, but Christians. He just said if they have acts of immorality, they won't inherit the kingdom of heaven. Am I supposed to believe Paul or you?

Now, in reference to the idea that Jesus bore our punishment. Well, yes he suffered for us. No question. However, he did not become a sinner and God punish him for that. He was a sacrificial offering whose purpose was to cleanse us from sin and its bondage. He did not become imputed with our sin, and we got his righteousness. Nowhere in the Bible is that taught. He cleansed us, but we need his grace to pursue holiness without which no one will see the Lord (Heb. 12:14)

You claim that our theology would make it so we would not die? It is backward. Of course we are mortal human beings and we die, even if we can live righteously. That is a consequence of AdamĎs sin. We die. We acknowledge that. You are the one who claims that you get a perfect imputed righteousness. If that was the case, then one should not have to physically die.

You said Jesus can not lie, and he guarantees eternal life. Well, for those who stay in his grace, there is a guarantee. We have free will, though to run away from that gift he gives us. Well, indeed Jesus can not lie, and he says the following:

Mark 9:43-45 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched. 45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

Jesus uses hyperbole to bring home the point that if we fall into serious sin says we can go to hell. Now, when he speaks of having eternal life, it is not something where we donít play a part in it. In fact we do play a part in it. If we turn away from him, we lose that justification. Jesus himself says so:

Luke 8:13 They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

On the sermon on the Mount, in Matthew 5, speaking to apostles and believers, he says, Mt. 5:22:

22 But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

BTW, do you have anybody in the first 15 centuries of Christianity that believed that one can not commit a sin that can lose salvation. Author and quote and context please. Or were the 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd Century, 4th century followers of Christ who gave up their lives for Christ (and all Christian believers through 15 centuries who believed that they could lose their salvation) all believers in a warped theology? BTW, can you give me how your view of salvation fits Jesus' description who goes to heaven and who goes to hell, and the grounds being works or not works in Mt. 25:31-46, fit your theology? 

Can One Lose Salvation?
An Exchange Using the King James Version, Part 2

By Matt1618

This is response #2 to a King James only person, who is a Landmark Baptist, who believes in faith alone, and that one can not lose oneís salvation. Although the subject of the King James version, and Landmark theology does come up in passing, for the most part, this is an examination of biblical texts that deal with whether one can lose salvation. Because he is a King James only person, I do use the King James version in all of my verses.

It might be interesting to talk to you a little more on this subject, even though you are apparently one of these folks who picks out certain "Sins" that would supposively damn men's souls, but I see that you are part of the Alexandrian Cult that doesn't even believe in the Preservation of God's word.

Well, John tells us of sins that are mortal as opposed to sins that are not mortal (1 Jn. 5:16-17), as does Paul (1 Cor. 3:13-15), and any common sense knows that there are distinctions between taking a candy and killing somebody.

Also, I am not part of an Alexandrian Cult that does not believe in the preservation of God's Word. But if you think that King James in 1611 was the 'preservation of God's Word', you are mistaken. God's word was written mostly in Hebrew (Old Testament), and New Testament in Greek. It was not written in King James English. Catholic martyrs, saints and monks preserved God's Word, by copying manuscripts to make copies available for people to read. Without Catholicism you would have no Bible.

Maybe an Infidel. Mt. 24:25 declares that, "Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away." Is. 40:8 reads, "The grass withereth, the flower fadeth: but the word of our God shall stand for ever." I guess the Lord needed to rewrite a new "Version, so-called" every few years because he couldn't preserve the one he inspired the first time! Ya right! So not only dear reader are you mistaken about "eternal life" you are badly fooled on the matter of the word of God. Ye are of your father the devil, because he was the first one to tamper with the Infallible word of God way back in Genesis. I hope Genesis is in your book that you call a Bible or did they take it out also?

Well, first of all, if you think the KJV is the one and only Bible, what about all the non-English translations? The Bible was written in the language of the day. In New Testament it was in koine Greek. It has been translated in many, many languages. To say that KJV in 1611 is the one is not reasonable. There have been many editions of the KJV of course. Now, that translation was written for people in the 1600s. We don't speak the same way that the people in the 17th century do, so in order to make the Bible make sense, we do have updated translations. Now granted, one new edition every couple of years is not necessary, but we don't speak with the word 'spake', any more. Some words in KJV English mean nothing to us now, because we don't use that language. But in any case, you can't be serious about us throwing away books of the Bible. We have all the books that you have. In fact, you are of the cult that following the lead of heretic Martin Luther, threw away 7 books of the Bible, 1 & 2 Maccabees, Wisdom, Sirach, Baruch, Tobit, and Judith. Christians for 15 centuries accepted these books as Scripture, but Luther the heretic threw those books out.

You made mention of all those Christian martyrs in your reply back to me. One of the main things that they died for was not only their faith in Jesus Christ and his shed blood, but also for the infallible word of God. Those bunch of Catholic devils couldn't wait to burn William Tyndale in the town of Filford in 1536, who began translating the word of God. BTW. it is Catholicism that first began to teach that one could lose his salvation, not Christ, the apostles, or any of the early born again, saved by grace, sealed unto the day of redemption fore fathers. You most have Protestant blood in you. Baptist are not Protestant, our forefathers didn't come out of that mess and they aren't returning either!

It is the Catholics who kept and preserved the Bible. Tyndale did not Ďbegin translating the infallible word of God.Ď He had an erroneous one that even Protestants of his time rejected. He himself said that he was Ďevil favored in this world, and without grace in the sight of men, speechless and rude, dull and slow witted.Ď He had no qualification for the task of translation. Even the heretic Martin Luther acknowledged that. Jesus surely did not teach faith alone (see Mt. 25:31-46, Jn. 5:28-29, Mt. 19:16-17 Rev. 22:14) and he surely taught that one can lose salvation, (see Mk. 9:43, Mt. 24:13, Lk 12:43-46, Jn. 15:6 see below). You are not giving these Scriptures a fair reading by just dismissing them out of hand.

Onto translations into English. There were English translations preexisting Tyndale. Caedmon, a monk of Whitby in the 7th century. In the 8th century, we have copies of the Venerable Bede, a monk of Jarrow,. We have copies of Eadhelm, Bishop of Sherborne; of Guthlac, a hermit near PeterboroughĎ;, and Egbert, Bishop of Holy Island. Now, you claim - that the early Christians believe one can not lose salvation. Please give me one early Christian who believed as 1 that matter. Now don't quote Scripture. I've quoted you Scriptures that you ignore or downplay. If you are a Baptist, give me some Baptist believers in the late 1st century, 2nd century, 3rd century anybody until the 15th century, who said 'you can not lose your salvation'. You won't find any Baptists, because there were none. Now I need quotes that say that, not some kind of thing saying, 'well there were Baptists' but quotes from the 'Baptist' Fathers themselves. Montanists did not believe what you do on that matter for example.

As mentioned, every book in the NT, except Philemon, teaches that one can lose salvation. You ignore, look away, and rationalize away Scriptures at your own peril. No one can come to the conclusion that one can not lose salvation unless one has been told so and ignore Scriptures that tell them otherwise. The Scriptures are clear on that matter:Heb. 10:26-29 for example. In fact Paul says 'do not be deceived' in that matter as you are deceiving yourself. See my last quote.

BTW, if you are so dogmatic on losing your salvation what are you going to do with Rev. 22:18-19, "For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto those things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God SHALL TAKE AWAY HIS PART OUT OF THE BOOK OF LIFE, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

You are of a group that has thrown away 7 books of the Bible and you are using that against me? That is a qood quote that shows one can lose salvation, by the way.

Any man who has tampered with this book God is going to mess with his mind! Rom. 3:1-2 tells us that this book was to be written by Jews, not Gentiles! "What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision? Much every way: chiefly, because unto them were committed the ORACLES of God." Enough about that.

Well, the 7 books that you threw away were written by Jews. However, Luke was half Greek, and he wrote the book of Luke, and Acts. Your Bible doesn't include Luke? The Catholic Bible is written by Jews, with the exception of Luke and Acts. I don't see how that is relevant though.

I know why Jesus come, "For the Son of man is come to save that which was lost." Mt. 18:11. The scriptures you used in Tit. tells us about grace appearing to all men, what grace does in the believers life once he has repented, what to expect in the future, and how that he will purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works. But where does it say in this passage of scripture that if a man doesn't do this he will burn in a lake of fire forever? No where!

What that shows is the purpose of God sending Jesus, in the context of salvation. And a part of that salvation is by God's grace, one zealous for good works and being purified from all iniquity. Nothing about being covered over for one's salvation. Thus, it shows that one's works are not 'filthy rags'. But that they are instrumental in salvation. Since Paul does teach in the reality of hell. And since he says that in salvation, one must be purified (not covered over with Christ's righteousness) and pursue righteousness, if one sins and does not have good works, he will be condemned (as Paul himself mentions in 1 Cor. 6:9-11,

Rom. 8:17 when properly read states, "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." This simply means that whatever is his is mine (ETERNAL LIFE). The second portion of this verse has to do with suffering for his glory, that we will reign with him during the 1000 year period. Not a loss of salvation but a denial of ruling and reigning with him!

You are telling me about man-made conditions??? Tell me anywhere in Romans 8, which says anything about Ďreigning with him during the 1000 year period.í Tell me anyone in 1800 years following Christ which taught that Romans 8 meant anything like that, and Iíd be interested. The passage says absolutely nothing about that!!! First, using your KJV, Paul gives us the background. He is speaking about us, believe it or not we ourselves, meeting the just requirement of the law, and how we are to achieve justification in Rom. 8:2-4:

[2] For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. [3] For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: [4] That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

The law does not provide justification. The law given by Moses only provides law and death. However, when the Holy Spirit comes, he provides grace, so that Christians themselves can meet the righteous requirement of the law!!! But what kind of law is it the law of the Spirit (v. 2). Those who walk, and after the Spirit, fulfill the law in the Spirit. Now does it mean 100% perfection, absolutely not! Because this is the law of the Spirit. Because we are his children. He sees us as a Father sees his sons. We donít get cast out of his presence over a fleeting thought not glorifying God. But we can disinherit through bad actions. (Also see Heb. 12:14-17, for example) Then he says that one can lose salvation in Romans 8, including the verses directly preceding Rom. 8:17:

[12] Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. [13] For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. [14] For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. [15] For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. [16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: [17] And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.

It says here, in v.12, right then that we are debtors. Thus, we owe God works. But not as someone who owes him as though we work for him as a employee puts in work for their employer, but as a son who works for his Father. Now, it says, if one mortifies, or puts to death the deeds of the body, one shall live!!! Nothing about, reigning with Christ for the 1000 year period. If not, one shall die, as it specifically says in v. 13. Then it says how if one is led by the Spirit, they are Sons of God. Then it says that we must suffer with him, in order to be glorified with him. Thus, the context is life and justification, as opposed to dying and separation from him. Later on, when it says nothing shall separate one from Christ, (v. 31-39), it says the sword shall not separate, peril, but you notice it does not say that sin shall separate one from Christ, but that if one suffers with Christ and stays obedient, those things will not. However, mortal sin does separate from Christ as he just mentioned (Rom. 8:12-13, see 1 Cor. 6:9-11, Eph. 5:3-5, Gal. 5:19-21, etc.).

Rom. 5:19 "For by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous." It doesn't say by our obedience (we have none 100 percent of the time) were we made righteous, but by his obedience. That verse really shows us how that salvation is of the Lord not ourselves. You and me both know that the best we can do, is still unacceptable as far as salvation is concerned.

What that passage shows is that by his obedience, that made us righteous. This was just to show you that our righteousness is not filthy rags as you said in your prior email. Christians are not just declared righteous. He is the one who does that. Without him we can do nothing (Jn. 15:5) We must cooperate to keep ourselves righteous. Then he shows us, just after Rom. 5, how one is made righteous. And Paul does say that we must cooperate with him, Rom. 6.

[1] What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound? [2] God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein? [3] Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?[4] Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life.[5] For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection:[6] Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. [7] For he that is dead is freed from sin.[8] Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:[9] Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.[10] For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.[11] Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.[12] Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof.[13] Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God.[14] For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.[15] What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.[16] Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey, his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Thus, one is made righteous how? By baptism. How are we buried into his death? By baptism. And what does it do? We are justified (v. 7), or freed from the bondage of sin. Now does it mean 100% perfection? No, because we are his children, he sees us as a Father does a son (as we saw in Rom. 8). But Christians our instruments of righteousness not instruments of filthy rags, as you were arguing, and this all has to do with how one is justified before God. Obedience leads to righteousness, disobedience leads to death as Rom. 6:16 says.

John 10:22-29 you should believe what it says (KJV) and not what that ridiculous book of yours says.

Jesus says that no one can snatch us out of his hands. Yes, no exterior force (just as Paul says in Rom. 8:31-39). However, he does not say that we can not sin our way out of his hands. If we leave on our own through sin, that is not an exterior force snatching us, it is our ownselves doing it: In John 15, a few chapters later, he says:

[5] I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. [6] If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

One will get cast forth, and out if one does not continue to abide in him. He will cast us out if we do sin our ways out: Mk. 9:43, Mt. 24:13, Lk 12:43-46. Mark 9, are other passages that speak to Christians, he says:

[Mark 9:43] And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

A believer can go to hell if he sins.

Mt. 24:13:

13] But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

Only he who endures to the end will be saved. If one does, not he is not saved.

Mt. 6:14-15

[14] For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you: [15] But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

Thus, Jesus is talking to his disciples, those in his grace, about needing Godís forgiveness. He says that if one refuses to forgive others, God will not forgive you!!! Now, he is not talking to unbelievers but believers. If we are unforgiving towards others, we can not get Godís forgiveness. That is very clear to me.

Luke 12:41-46

[41] Then Peter said unto him, Lord, speakest thou this parable unto us, or even to all? [42] And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?[43] Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. [44] Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. [45] But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; [46] The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

Here he is talking about servants, and how God will treat his servants. He tells Peter that he is speaking to his disciples, and they are like his servants. If a believer, who in this parable is a servant, is lax, he will be assigned with the unbelievers. That means he will go to hell. What part of that do you not understand?

See Matthew 5:22:

But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, 'You fool!' shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Every one who becomes angry with his brother is liable to hellfire. In Mt. 5:19, he just said that oneís righteousness must exceed that of the Pharisees. Anger can be oneís downfall from grace.

John 3:16 ditto

Iíve responded on this passage in my earlier email!!!

John 5:24 ditto Don't dodge these, for if you do you will have to give account unto God dear friend!

I donít dodge, I give it the context. First, what does not only John 5:24 say, but all the verses, including 5:24-29:

[24] Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [25] Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live. [26] For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself; [27] And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man. [28] Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice, [29] And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Alleging that I am downplaying this passage is fakse. In the very passage you give me, Jesus says that Faith and works are necessary for salvation. A verse taken out of context is proof texts for alot of errors, and that is what you just gave me. Jesus does not say faith alone. I donít argue works alone, so the fact that Jesus notes that faith is a grounds of salvation I highlight, donít downplay. Jesus says that come judgment time, only those who do good get the resurrection of life, those who donĎt get damned. Thus, faith is not the only instrument: Jesus shows works as a cause of salvation. We know that people who believe, can sometime in the future do bad. If believers do bad (sin mortally), they wonít have the resurrection of life. Only if they do good: Works are instruments of salvation. Also, it is really possible that one who believes can fall away and lose their salvation. For example, Jesus says in Luke 8:13:

They on the rock are they, which, when they hear, receive the word with joy; and these have no root, which for a while believe, and in time of temptation fall away.

Jesus knows in John 5:24 that it is possible to believe only for a while. Endurance is a necessary cause of salvation. The apostle John writes in 1 Jn. 3:10-15, using the same words of Jesus in Jn. 5:24:

[10] In this the children of God are manifest, and the children of the devil: whosoever doeth not righteousness is not of God, neither he that loveth not his brother. [11] For this is the message that ye heard from the beginning, that we should love one another. [12] Not as Cain, who was of that wicked one, and slew his brother. And wherefore slew he him? Because his own works were evil, and his brother's righteous. [13] Marvel not, my brethren, if the world hate you. [14] We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death. [15] Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.

He writes to the brethren that they have known Christ. First, in v. 10, only those who do righteousness know God. Thus, no faith alone. We must love one another, v. 10-11. He specifically compares Christians to Cain. We can become like Cain!! Thus, there is no idea of once saved always saved. We have passed from death to life in Christ, writes John, but he warns us not to be like Cain. Cain hated his brother Abel and killed him, as we all know. Right in the midst of that, he says we passed from death to life, just like Jesus himself said in Jn. 5:24. If one does not love his brother, one will not abide in God. Just by not loving the brethren, one becomes a murderer (that is why he compares to Cain), and John is specific in saying that one will not have eternal life!!! Thus, he will no longer have eternal life. So much for that phrase used by Jesus in Jn. 5:24 meaning it is not possible to lose salvation. John heard what Jesus said in John 5:24, but he also realizes that it is possible to do Ďbad,í and get damnation, and he specifically warns that if one goes from loving the brethren to not loving the brethren one will go to hell (see also Mt. 5:22)!!! He understood quite clearly that when Jesus said what he did, not only did he not mean salvation by faith alone (Jn. 5:28-29), but also that one can lose salvation by hating their brethren, which he specifically warns Christians to avoid!!!

I Cor. 5:1-13 tells us about a man who was in the act of FORNICATION. Paul says in verse 5. "To deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the FLESH, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus." If a man has truly been born again, and he wilfully sins, the church is admonished to put him out. This of course would bring about repentance in one's life unless he has never been saved to begin with. If that be the case then he will act like the devil that he is full of and run the church down and the man of God and will continue to stay in his sin!

Yes, he called him to deliver him so that will get him to repent from his sin, and we see that it worked!!! The purpose is to repent, so he can get back in Godís graces. As a fornicator, he came out of Godís graces. Exactly he did repent as shown in 2 Cor. 2:5-8!!! That is exactly his purpose. Now if he did not repent he would have stayed out of Godís grace, as he writes in the chapter that you ignored!!!

Let us look again at 1 Corinthians 6:9-18

[9] Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,[10] Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God. [12] All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. [13] Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. [14] And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power. [15] Know ye not that your bodies are the members of Christ? shall I then take the members of Christ, and make them the members of an harlot? God forbid. [16] What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh. [17] But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. [18] Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that commiteth fornication sinneth against his own body.

Remember, the fornicator heard this warning. He knew that if he continued to sin, it was actually fornication with his own mother (1 Cor. 5:1), he would not inherit the kingdom, and what he was doing, applied in verses 9 and 10 and 16-18 of 1 Cor. 6, where Paul specifically said he would not inherit the kingdom. Paul warned him specifically against your belief. He took heed and repented of that sin. Specifically because Paul taught contrary to your belief.

If you will carefully read the next letter Paul wrote to the Corinthians (II Cor. 2:5-8), you will see he repents.

Remember, the fornicator heard this warning And part of the reason that he repented was because he read that Paul warned him that if he continued that way, he would go to hell.

I John boldly states in chp. 5:4 "For whatsoever is born of God OVERCOMETH the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith." Not shall overcome, maybe overcome, might overcome, but OVERCOMETH!

Context context context. Here is the context of that statement, 1 Jn. 5:1-4:

1] Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is born of God: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. [2]By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments. [3] For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous. [4] For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

So in the context of the verse you gave me, it says that one will overcome the world. How does he do it? By not only believing but keeping the commandments. And the commandments are not burdensome!!! But you just said that one can not keep it perfectly!!! Yes, we can still keep the commandments, even if we are not perfect. So thus, again, you show a verse torn totally out of context to prove faith alone, when he is rightly involved in explaining that a true believer, must keep the commandments. Remember, John had written in reference to keeping the commandments, 1 Jn. 2:1-5:

[1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: [2] And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.[5]But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.

Also, in the same chapter 1 Jn. 5, John tells us the difference between mortal sins and venial sins, 1 Jn. 5:16-17.

[16] If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it. [17] All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

Sins that lead to death are mortal (sins that cut off the relationship with God) and sins that donít are not mortal (venial sins). The Protestant out that is talking about only sins where one dies, is belied by the fact that John is talking about eternal life and eternal death in this chapter. He both begins in the chapter speaking about it, mid chapter, and ends the book in speaking of eternal life. Nowhere is he talking about death in the physical sense. Thus, in the very chapter you point me to, John points us to the distinctions in sins, that you say God doesnít have. And he warns us to not commit mortal sins. If we thus break the commandments we are no longer in Christ.

He also said in chapter 2:19 "They went out from us, but they were not of us: for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made MANIFEST that they WERE NOT all of us." Self explanatory!

Well, the context in 1 Jn 2:19, is the prior verse, where it is plain that here he is talking about people who claimed to be Christians, but were anti-Christs who had pretended to be Christians, but were really not. He is not saying that all people who had become Christians or looked like they were Christians and had turned away from the faith are anti-Christs!!!. He is speaking to a specific situation (the Gnostics who came into the Church and pretended to be Christians), he is not saying that all who depart from the faith, had never been Christians before!!! In fact, he warns people who are already in the faith just a few verses prior, and those still among those in the faith, can lose their justification by not keeping the commandments, (1 Jn. 2:2-5).

Last but certainly not least is your comment on Mt. 25:31-46. This is plain as anyone could want it on what happens during the beginning of he 1000 yr. reign of Christ. First the judgment of the nations 31-32. Then the judgment of individuals that helped his brethren (Jews of course since the tribulation period is classified as the time of Jacob's trouble Jer. 30:7 and many more. The sheep (saved individuals) will go into everlasting life, but the goats ( lost people) will go to hell! Vs. 46 states that, "And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." How can we be righteous? Because Jesus has imputed unto us his righteousness! Nothing we can do or will do.

It is hard to respond to this because I see not hint of what you are saying in the text. There is nothing indicating in the passage that here he is speaking about a tribulation, or 1000 year reign. He is speaking about the judgment of all the nations, see v. 31-32. Mt. 25:31-46. He makes the distinctions of those who go to heaven, from those who go to hell based on what good works or bad works were done. Absolutely nothing in there about an imputed righteousness. The only righteousness that he is speaking about, is what one did or did not do!!!

How sad to not even know if you are saved or not. I John said in his letter 27 times the word "know." Reckon he knew what he was talking about?I would say so.

1 Jn. 2:3-5, the one says we know him only if we keep the commandments, we are known to be a liar, and not in him if we donĎt keep the commandments!!! That is what we know. (He used the word know there 4 times). And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.

1 Jn. 2:29: [29] If ye know that he is righteous, ye know that every one that doeth righteousness is born of him.

Yes, he knew. But what did he know? That one knows him if we keep the commandments. We know that if we do righteous, we are of him. If we do not, we do not know him!! Thus, being in him, and knowing him is contingent upon keeping the commandments.

BTW, salvation is not works but grace- Rom.11:6 "And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work." Hallelujah, I'm saved and know it for all time and eternity!!!! This doesn't make me want to sin, I sin more than I want to, but it makes me love my Heavenly Father more and more because what he has done for me!

Well, works by themselves save no one. Works and obedience must be done in Godís grace, or it avails nothing. That is true. But here the background is talking of works done outside grace. However, as he says in Rom. 2:6-13, works do justify, 6:16, 8:2-4, 13:8-10, etc. Now we do know that works do bring justification, as Paul himself says elsewhere:

1 Tim. 6:17-19:[17] Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy; [18] That they do good, that they be rich in good works, ready to distribute, willing to communicate; [19] Laying up in store for themselves a good foundation against the time to come, that they may lay hold on eternal life.

By onesí actions one needs to be rich in good works. Only if one is in rich good works will one take hold of eternal life??? I thought that they take hold of eternal life by only believing? 1 Tim. 4:16:

[16] Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee.

I thought we had nothing to do with our own salvation? Why does Paul specifically say that by holding onto the doctrine, and continuing in it, one will save oneself!!!

What flavor are you anyhow? I know this has no bearings on salvation but I am curious as to whom you classify yourself with. I hope that you are aware of the fact that the Methodist didn't exist until the late 1700's, the Church of Christ, until the early 1800's, The Church of God's, Assembly of God, Pentecostals, Holiness, Nazarene, Seventh Day Adventists, Mormons, Jehovah Witnesses, and so on and so forth have not even been around but maybe since the last 200 years.

Iím with the Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. Not a Protestant. Iím with the Church founded by Jesus.

Their has been Anabaptists, Baptists around since the days of the apostles! Sometimes they were called Montanists, Paulicians, Waldenses, Donatists, and so on but church history teaches that this is where the Modern Day Fundamental Bible Believing Baptists came from as far as title is concerned.

Umm, I know that is a nice theory, founded by Carroll who wrote the Trail of Blood. Iím sure you have it. Here is a critique of that. http://www.turrisfortis.com/trail.html

A Baptist, who studied this issue debunked this theory in a book that I hope you can get: American Baptist scholar James Edward McGoldrick definitively refuted it in his book Baptist Sucessionism We never get writings from any Anabaptist Fathers. The Montanists were heretics who definitely did not believe in once saved always saved, as if one was a Christian and committed a particular sin, they had no chance at salvation. The Donatists were Catholics who separated on an issue or two, but believed in the necessity of sacraments for salvation, and definitely did not believe once saved always saved. Those ones that were heretics did not believe what Baptists believed.

1) We believe in the Premillennial return of the Lord Jesus Christ to catch his church away

Your version of this was created in the 19th century.

the Trinity,

You are right on the Trinity, but it was the Catholic Council of Nicaea that defined this doctrine in the 4th century.

the preservation of God's Holy Word (KJV),

The Catholic Church preserved Godís Holy Word, and there were English translations before the King James Version as mentioned earlier. There were other languages that were translated, and the Catholic Church produced the manuscripts and made copies so there were manuscripts from which translations were possible.

the literal death, burial and bodily resurrection of our Lord Jesus Christ,

Ok, Catholics are with you on this one.

Lordship salvation (for there is no other kind) he is either Lord of all or not Lord at all!

I am vaguely familiar with this position. Not enough to comment on though.

The virgin birth, that Jesus was without sin, never committed the first sin.

Ok, you are right on that one, Catholics teach this as well.

I believe that you are very sincere friend and you are aware of the fact that I am likewise, but one of us is wrong and you know that and I know that and someday we will have to give account unto God for what we said, done, preached, taught and so on.

Right, one of us is sincerely wrong. I have studied the theology of those closest to Christ, and those people were Catholic. I have studied the writings of the Early Fathers, and they teach Catholic things, not Baptist things (unless some Baptist doctrines like some of the above, are actually borrowed from Catholic theology). (I suggest Jurgens, ĎFaith of the Early Fathers, 3 volumes. The first fathers online, for example can be found here: http://www.ccel.org/fathers2

Again, no Baptists there. Exactly, one of the reasons that I believe this is because I wanted to know the truth, and wanted to find out not only how we got the Bible, how we got the canon that we now call the Bible, and what did the first Christians after the apostles believe, because Jesus did promise that he would be with this Church until the end of time (Mt. 16:18-19, 28:19-20). I saw that those who followed the apostles who wrote, wrote specifically Catholic things, such as the real presence of Christ in the Eucharist, baptismal regeneration, the necessity of works for salvation, how one can lose oneís justification, the succession of bishops, authority of the bishop of Rome as early as the 1st century, the Deuterocanonical (or you call them Apocryphal) books quoted as Scripture by the Fathers, etc. That is why I could not be Baptist. The Fathers were Catholics. I used to believe in faith alone, Bible alone, and was led in a salvation prayer by a Baptist. But then I started seeing all those scriptures that teach against Faith alone, and I saw the Fathers were not Baptist, but Catholics.

I know some of my comments probably aren't as carefully spoken as they ought to be but I believe that a sharp rebuttal or rebuke is in order sometimes. This matter of salvation, heaven of hell, which book is really God's Word is too important to mess up on!

I appreciate you taking the time to respond to me. I believe that one of us is right, and the other person is wrong. I believe the Scriptures I showed you teach that the idea of faith alone is false, and the idea of once saved always saved also is not true.

You had better make sure that you have looked upon this thing from every angle because if you continue to lead men astray with these things I just mentioned you will cause HELL to become more populated instead of helping people not to go there! I do understand that there is certain groups of Baptists that teach once you are saved it doesn't matter how you live but that teaching is very contrary to the Word of God! Jude said in vs. 4 that "For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of OUR God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ. They say they are true Baptists, but truth known they are none of God's children because God Almighty has never allowed his people to sin and get by with it! I am not a part of this reproachful mess nor would I ever teach such or have sympathy on such. I believe it is our responsibility to live as Holy and as Sanctified as we can for the glory of God, and this is exactly what the Bible declares.

I believe the doctrine that you have leads to the very problem you decry. I know that you think, well, if you love God and accept Jesus you are not going to want to sin, and think about getting away with. But what I and the church believe, with the idea that we are accountable for every thing that we do will not fill hell, but your doctrine will fill hell. I understand that you sound like you yourself are very much against sin, and I respect that. The idea that once one accepts Jesus, everything is guaranteed, and that sins can not separate one from God, and one becomes deceived. Even if you oppose the idea that it would lead to sin, it inevitably will do so. Remember, Paul warned against this idea in Eph. 5, 1 Cor. 6, etc. It is just false doctrine, as Iíve shown in the original message, and here as well. Even using the King James Bible. Also, I apologize if I come off strongly but I believe the Bible is clear on these issues, and I want to point them out to you.

Article used by permission.  We pray this article has helped you to learn in your search for truth.                    March 2, 2007

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